New England Patriots Discussion

[cmarq83]

Alright so it looks like we finally have some idea what the salary cap is going to look like.

$120 million per team.. "feels like 130 million"

The pats are sitting at around 113 million with rookies left to sign, but some dead weight they can possibly cut (Kazcur 3.7 million). Now that we have a rough idea how would you approach free agency?

[descendency]

NE's roster is basically complete.

I mean, people speculate Randy Moss wants to come back to NE, but BB will not have 3 WRs with zero special teams value on his roster. Especially when two of them are way over the hill.

Our cap number could go down though, given that Mankins may sign. There is a feeling he might, but with the settlement of the lawsuit potentially making him a free agent, who knows... But either way, that's probably a significant chunk of change going off the books for NE.

I really like Manny Lawson, but he's probably going to be overpaid by a 43 team since he basically can do it all outside of be a dominant pass rusher.

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by descendency

NE's roster is basically complete.

I mean, people speculate Randy Moss wants to come back to NE, but BB will not have 3 WRs with zero special teams value on his roster. Especially when two of them are way over the hill.

Our cap number could go down though, given that Mankins may sign. There is a feeling he might, but with the settlement of the lawsuit potentially making him a free agent, who knows... But either way, that's probably a significant chunk of change going off the books for NE.

I really like Manny Lawson, but he's probably going to be overpaid by a 43 team since he basically can do it all outside of be a dominant pass rusher.

I agree with you that New England will be pretty quiet to start the period. I feel like signing Mankins early is a must. That line is way too up in the air to let him sit out until week 8 again. I also think the Pats need to start looking within to sign guys longterm. I know it's 2 years away, but I'd like to see them lock up Jerod Mayo longterm. In 2013 Mayo, Vollmer, and Chung are all free agents, and knowing how the Patriots like to put off contracts they can't handle all 3 at the same time. If they extend some of these guys now they might even save a little money in the process.

In terms of free agents I'd like to see them add another body at OLB. Kiwi, Lawson, Roth, or even Bryan Thomas when he's released would be acceptable. Another guy who I think would be a great addition who hasn't been mentioned around here is Damien Woody. He was recently released from the Jets, and he knows Scarnecchia's system. We could slide him in at RG and I feel like he'd be a better player than Connolly, and could hold down the fort cheaply for a year or 2 until Cannon is ready.

[Razor]

I have zero interest in Manny Lawson, he has no pass rushing ability what so ever. I'd love to get Kiwi and Roth though, Kiwi has the potential to be a beast for us if his body holds up. Roth played in a similar system and would probably be a better player than Ninko. A player everyone seems to be forgetting is Eric Moore who made quite a few impact plays despite not being in the system for long. With a bit more time I'm intrigued to see what he can do, he seemed to be very clutch late last year. Also, I want Randy Moss back, but I'm sure that doesn't surprise many people around here lol.

As for signing Mayo, Vollmer and Chung now, I completely agree. Unfortunately that's not how BB roll. The way he looks at it is that why should he pay more than he has to for two seasons to secure his players long term? While there is some logic to that approach I would like to lock up some of our young promising players now just to avoid any future trouble. However, I feel like the three players mentioned here would all be inclined to take a slightly below market value deal to stay in NE.

I'm not sure that I would want Woody back. Sure he has inside knowledge about the Jets and knows the system and coaches, but he just seems to be over the hill.

[descendency]

TBC wasn't exactly a pass rush monster in SF either...

[Jvig43]

TBC had one good year of rushing and that was it. I hated him when we got had him the first time, hated him even when he was doing well with the sacks. He isn't a smart player when hes asked to do more then rush the Qb.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by descendency

TBC wasn't exactly a pass rush monster in SF either...

Don't even try to bring up Tully Banta-Fail! The guy has always been and will always be a bum. The fact that he's starting for us really speaks volumes as to how terrible we are at OLB.

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by Razor

I have zero interest in Manny Lawson, he has no pass rushing ability what so ever. I'd love to get Kiwi and Roth though, Kiwi has the potential to be a beast for us if his body holds up. Roth played in a similar system and would probably be a better player than Ninko. A player everyone seems to be forgetting is Eric Moore who made quite a few impact plays despite not being in the system for long. With a bit more time I'm intrigued to see what he can do, he seemed to be very clutch late last year. Also, I want Randy Moss back, but I'm sure that doesn't surprise many people around here lol.

As for signing Mayo, Vollmer and Chung now, I completely agree. Unfortunately that's not how BB roll. The way he looks at it is that why should he pay more than he has to for two seasons to secure his players long term? While there is some logic to that approach I would like to lock up some of our young promising players now just to avoid any future trouble. However, I feel like the three players mentioned here would all be inclined to take a slightly below market value deal to stay in NE.

I'm not sure that I would want Woody back. Sure he has inside knowledge about the Jets and knows the system and coaches, but he just seems to be over the hill.

I have pretty much accepted the fact that if the Patriots go out and get anyone at OLB who isn't a Rob Ninkovich stop gap type, it's going to be Manny Lawson. We all know Bill Belichick's profile for an ideal OLB and Manny Lawson is that guy. He's 6'5" 240 and runs a 4.4 40. His specialty is setting the edge and pass coverage which are both huge within this system, and by all accounts he's a pretty smart guy who scored a 43 on his wonderlic coming out of college.

I think we all know he's not that great of a pass rusher, but the Pats need another body at OLB who can actually be useful. If there is any saving grace to him it's that according to Pro Football Focus he ranked as the 7th most effective pass rusher on a per snap basis. Now we know not to take PFF at face value, but even if he's able to hurry the QB from time to time that would be an improvement. Bill Belichick is on record saying that sacks are overrated, and that is why there is a good chance Lawson could be here.

I like Matt Roth and Kiwi too, but to be fair they haven't been that much more productive since they've been in the league than Lawson. Eric Moore is intriguing and it's nice to have a bigger pass rusher like him to help in nickel sets.

In terms of signing one of those 3 longterm, I know it's not going to happen, but it would make sense to lock Mayo up longterm. He's already the leader of the defense and makes 5 million per so he wouldn't make that much more annually if you extend him. Give him a 6 year $40 million dollar contract and move on.

I'm not really sure that Woody is over the hill. He is an injury risk, but the Jets were still extremely effective running to the right last year, and with him and Vollmer on the right I feel like the Patriots would have something to build on as the year goes along. I'd certainly be more happy with him as a utility man than Ojinaka or Kazcur.

[ElectricEye]

I'll take Manny Lawson in a heartbeat. Without hesitation, even. I would prefer Kiwi, but I'm not sure the team will go for him for whatever reason. We've shown a tendency to ignore glaringly obvious solutions to the pass rush problem in the past, even though that's not to say Kiwi is a sure thing either. Lawson doesn't project to be a big time contributor in the pass rush, but at the very least he can do everything else and he still has a lot of upside and potential as a rusher just because of the tools. That's better than you can so for a lot of the guys on our roster.

[FlyingElvis]

Lawson intriques me. Anyone know if the 49ers actually used him as rusher? Throwing around sack numbers or saying he has no pass rushing ability can be misleading if he wasn't rushing do to scheme. Generally, I'd say no coach worth their salt would waste his talents if he was a stud rusher, but in this case it's the 49ers and they've had some ineptitude rolling through the coaching ranks for a while now.

[Razor]

Lawson has 14.5 sacks in his 5 year career. I don't care what you attribute that to, that's just not something I want at OLB - especially when he is looking to get paid. Lawson has tons of potential, and maybe he could live up to that with BB coaching him up. I don't know. But from what I've seen he doesn't use his hands well and has little or no power. That's why I don't want Lawson as a Patriot. Sure he gets pressures, but that's not really what we're after at OLB right now imo.

[AntoinCD]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...&sct=hp_t11_a1

Ok so this article on Sports Illustrated says that when free agency starts the player on top of the Pats wishlist should be...yip you guessed it...Barrett Ruud. You know the prototypical Tampa 2 LB who can't shed blocks for anything and would play a position where we already have two young entrenched starters in Mayo and Spikes, a versatile back up in Guyton and a really intriguing young guy in Dane Flecther.

Seriously how the **** do these guys get paid for this garbage???

[FlyingElvis]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Seriously how the **** do these guys get paid for this garbage???

It's just soul crushing, isn't it?

[Nalej]

I saw that somewhere else as well... I think ESPN.
Makes no sense. It's like they see "linebacker" and figure they're right.
Shame on them.

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by FlyingElvis

It's just soul crushing, isn't it?

It's disgusting. I mean I know everyone loves to hate on a lot of guys in the media, but a lot of them have great contacts and break stories so I can't gripe too much. It's guys like this who put no thought what so ever into their article.

It really doesn't take a footballing genius to know that someone like Ruud doesn't fit in the system, or that the Pats are loaded at ILB. But hey, he fits the mould as a Patriots LB. Which translated means, he's a smart, slow, over achiever.

This honestly isn't rocket science. If he was looking for a guy who fits what the Pats want and would also be a bargain FA then look at someone like Matt Roth. He's an over achiever, but he also fits what the Pats look for at OLB(which is a huge need), and has played in two systems that Belichick has ties to-with Parcells in Miami and with Mangini in Cleveland.

[Borat]

Originally Posted by FlyingElvis

Lawson intriques me. Anyone know if the 49ers actually used him as rusher? Throwing around sack numbers or saying he has no pass rushing ability can be misleading if he wasn't rushing do to scheme. Generally, I'd say no coach worth their salt would waste his talents if he was a stud rusher, but in this case it's the 49ers and they've had some ineptitude rolling through the coaching ranks for a while now.

Having seen every game Lawson has played, I can tell you with 100% certainty that he has no passrushing skill whatsoever. He has only a speed move and it's generally ineffective. Once an OT gets his hands on him, it's over. RBs handle him as well. It's been painful watching him attempt to rush. We all envisioned him as a passrushing demon and it never materialized. The team just gave up and only had him cover and set the edge in the run game, two areas that he accels at. He's not a bad player, just not a passrusher at all. I'd say two thirds of his career sacks are from QBs scrambling to his side for easy sacks. I wouldn't mind the Niners keeping him, but not when he wants to be paid similar to what sack-artists make, which is insane.

[Jvig43]

I'm surprised that no one was raging over the article NFL put out about how the pats chances of winning another super bowl are gone because we don't have any RBs in the backfield. Maybe they forgot we drafted two rbs, got good production out of woodhead, or the fact the law firm had a 1000 yard season.

[Nalej]

No need to rage when you don't take the article seriously

[descendency]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

TBC had one good year of rushing and that was it. I hated him when we got had him the first time, hated him even when he was doing well with the sacks. He isn't a smart player when hes asked to do more then rush the Qb.

He is what he is, but the comment was about how he played a lot better here than the did there. I think the same would be true for Lawson.

Lawson could also fill quite a few roles allowing the patriots to keep an extra developmental guy on the roster.

And LOL @ Barrett Rudd.

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by Nalej

No need to rage when you don't take the article seriously

I know at this point it's just laughable. Although we all know what won us those first two sbs was a crushing running game haha.

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

I know at this point it's just laughable. Although we all know what won us those first two sbs was a crushing running game haha.

Antowain Smith FTW

[Don Vito]

Charles Johnson is a guy who intrigues me. He doesn't have a lot of height but that hasn't been a huge selling factor when it comes to our pass rushers lately. He doesn't have 3-4 experience but I think he could do it, he is very athletic and is probably the best pure rusher on the market. We haven't really had his name come up either so that makes him a more likely candidate then guys we've discussed like Kiwi and Lawson.

[Matthew Jones]

Anyone looking for a new sig? I just made a whole bunch of extras, so feel free to claim one of these!

Bill Belichick





Tom Brady



Deion Branch



Troy Brown



Dan Connolly



Julian Edelman



Kevin Faulk





BenJarvus Green-Ellis





Jerod Mayo



Jerod Mayo/Devin McCourty



Willie McGinest



Brandon Meriweather



Ty Warren



Wes Welker



Vince Wilfork



Danny Woodhead



Mike Wright



Misc.

[Matthew Jones]

Also, let me know if you guys have any requests! I'll see what I can do re. other players.

[monson]

So, the big pass rusher is out 5 weeks. Will this change anything in Pats plans?