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Old 02-26-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
descendency
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Originally Posted by Blackluck View Post
B. Lloyd not expected back .

Even more cap room. Given the WR depth in the draft, I imagine if we sign FA's it will be on D, although I don't know who is out there to target (Grimes, DRC? Is Webb an RFA?) Maybe room to trade & sign Percy, although we lack the chips if other teams (e.g. SF) is interested in him.
That's the wrong way to look at that. Lloyd's production per dollar value is insanely good. Whatever is driving him out of NE must be pretty serious, because even though fans dog him some - he was actually a steal in value.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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Why would they consider releasing Lloyd? Reasonable contract, definitely had his moments (especially for being the 3rd, sometimes 4th option) has a year of chemistry with Brady and was a good intermediate target.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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Why would they consider releasing Lloyd? Reasonable contract, definitely had his moments (especially for being the 3rd, sometimes 4th option) has a year of chemistry with Brady and was a good intermediate target.
Supposedly they don't like his attitude.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Final draft in the forum mock:

1.29. WR Justin Hunter, Tennessee*

2.57. DE Sam Montgomery, Louisiana St.*

3.83. CB Tyrann Mathieu, Louisiana St.*

3.91. CB Will Davis, Utah St.

6.190. SS Robert Lester, Alabama

7.215. CB Nickell Robey, Southern California*
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Final draft in the forum mock:

1.29. WR Justin Hunter, Tennessee*

2.57. DE Sam Montgomery, Louisiana St.*

3.83. CB Tyrann Mathieu, Louisiana St.*

3.91. CB Will Davis, Utah St.

6.190. SS Robert Lester, Alabama

7.215. CB Nickell Robey, Southern California*
You make that happen right now.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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The depth chart as it currently stands. I'm planning on making a few moves in free agency before finalizing the 53-man roster. Currently, we have one spot open.

OFFENSE:

QB:
T. Brady

RB: S. Ridley - S. Vereen - J. Demps - B. Bolden

WR: W. Welker - J. Hunter - J. Edelman - M. Slater

YT: R. Gronkowski - J. Ballard

FT: A. Hernandez

LT: N. Solder - M. Zusevics

LG: L. Mankins

OC: R. Wendell - D. Connolly

RG: D. Thomas

RT: S. Vollmer - M. Cannon



DEFENSE:

LE: R. Ninkovich - S. Montgomery - J. Cunningham

DT: K. Love - B. Deaderick - A. Armstead - M. Forston

NT: V. Wilfork

RE: C. Jones - J. Francis - J. Bequette - M. Benard

WB: J. Mayo - K. Maiava

MB: B. Spikes - D. Fletcher

SB: D. Hightower

LC: R. Dowling - W. Davis

FS: D. McCourty - S. Gregory - T. Wilson

SS: C. Woodson - R. Lester - N. Ebner

SC: T. Mathieu - N. Robey - M. Williams

RC: A. Dennard



SPECIAL TEAMS:

K: S. Gostkowski

P: Z. Mesko

LS: D. Aiken
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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I like it. I would worry about the other CB spot across from Dennard but I love the depth in the secondary. Other than that it's a good job
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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I love the draft, but corner and backup QB are Mack truck sized holes right now.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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I like it. I would worry about the other CB spot across from Dennard but I love the depth in the secondary. Other than that it's a good job
I'm more worried about the outside depth than the actual play of those guys. Aqib Talib actually gave up the most yards per coverage snap in the league last season, so the main factor in the secondary's resurgence appears to be shifting McCourty back to safety, sliding Arrington into the slot, and incorporating more pressure looks (blitzing linebackers, man coverage, etc.) more than Talib's actual play. My hope is that by replacing Gregory with Woodson and Arrington with Mathieu, the secondary will have more physical playmakers, while Dowling and Will Davis will be expected to match or exceed Talib's level of play last season. Check out some of Will Davis' tape (there's a few games on Youtube); he looks great in man coverage. He's also got one of the fastest three-cone drills in the past fifteen years.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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I love the draft, but corner and backup QB are Mack truck sized holes right now.
I don't see backup quarterback as a particularly important spot on this team; a developmental guy would be nice, but someone who could come in and play is unnecessary in my opinion. I do plan on trying to add someone in free agency, but does anyone really think the Patriots will be contenders if something happens to Tom Brady?
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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Hoyer!!!

lol


Also, don't expect much from Woodson. He seems to gone off the cliff in a big way.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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Hoyer's gone. :(

By the way, I ended up making one more draft pick, trading a 2014 sixth-round pick to draft Ohio State tight end Jake Stoneburner. I think he'd be a pretty good backup for Hernandez, someone who has lined up inline, in the slot, and at fullback. At 6'3" and 252 pounds, he has good size for the "F" tight end, and had some pretty impressive workout numbers as well (4.65 in the 40, 4.27 shuttle, 7.12 cone.)
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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I don't see backup quarterback as a particularly important spot on this team; a developmental guy would be nice, but someone who could come in and play is unnecessary in my opinion. I do plan on trying to add someone in free agency, but does anyone really think the Patriots will be contenders if something happens to Tom Brady?
Why is unnecessary though? The Patriots have a decent roster without Brady, and if they can get the secondary and receiver worked out, a fairly complete one at that. I just don't see why you'd just be willing to concede a season because 1 guy got hurt. Anything can happen and with competent QB play this team can and should make the playoffs.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Why is unnecessary though? The Patriots have a decent roster without Brady, and if they can get the secondary and receiver worked out, a fairly complete one at that. I just don't see why you'd just be willing to concede a season because 1 guy got hurt. Anything can happen and with competent QB play this team can and should make the playoffs.
I'm not sure. New England couldn't even make the playoffs with Matt Cassel leading a roster that had gone 18-1 the past season. This team lives and dies with Brady. We don't even win games in which Brady has a decent performance.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure. New England couldn't even make the playoffs with Matt Cassel leading a roster that had gone 18-1 the past season. This team lives and dies with Brady. We don't even win games in which Brady has a decent performance.
We found out that Matt Cassel sucked really hard though. I think the upside is enormously higher with Mallett than Cassel. Mallett has the potential to challenge teams with his arm which makes the offense potentially a lot more dynamic. That 2008 team was centered around Laurence Maroney, Sammy Morris, and Wes Welker. Moss had great stats, but he wasn't as good as he was with Brady because Cassel throws a lousy deep ball. I'd like our chances better with Mallett who could hit a guy like Gronk or Hunter all over the field.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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That's a bit unfair considering it was also a year where 11 wins didn't earn a playoff berth.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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We found out that Matt Cassel sucked really hard though. I think the upside is enormously higher with Mallett than Cassel. Mallett has the potential to challenge teams with his arm which makes the offense potentially a lot more dynamic. That 2008 team was centered around Laurence Maroney, Sammy Morris, and Wes Welker. Moss had great stats, but he wasn't as good as he was with Brady because Cassel throws a lousy deep ball. I'd like our chances better with Mallett who could hit a guy like Gronk or Hunter all over the field.
To some extent I agree, but I'd also argue that Mallett hasn't really inspired confidence thus far in either the preseason or the regular season, and that he probably won't ever play for New England barring something unforeseen. Before Brady signed his new deal, his contract was set to expire at the same time as Mallett's. In order to keep Mallett around, the Patriots would have had to jettison Brady and commit to paying Mallett a starter's salary without seeing if he could even perform like one. At this point, his primary value lies in his potential trade value; the Patriots should be trying to surround Tom Brady with the talent to win, not trying to hedge their bets with someone like Mallett.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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That's a bit unfair considering it was also a year where 11 wins didn't earn a playoff berth.
The Patriots won seven fewer games with basically the same roster though, even with Cassel playing surprisingly well.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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To some extent I agree, but I'd also argue that Mallett hasn't really inspired confidence thus far in either the preseason or the regular season, and that he probably won't ever play for New England barring something unforeseen. Before Brady signed his new deal, his contract was set to expire at the same time as Mallett's. In order to keep Mallett around, the Patriots would have had to jettison Brady and commit to paying Mallett a starter's salary without seeing if he could even perform like one. At this point, his primary value lies in his potential trade value; the Patriots should be trying to surround Tom Brady with the talent to win, not trying to hedge their bets with someone like Mallett.
Well who knows what 2 years from now will look like, if it's a good QB draft the Pats just might be able to sign Mallett for a Matt Flynn type contract. If he's promised the job after Brady it sure as hell beats out trying to win a starting spot somewhere else. I just really don't see a reason why the Patriots would force their hand on this since they have plenty of time let this play out.

Losing is infectious. This team currently goes into every game expecting to win. If it loses that feeling I don't even know if a healthy Brady can get that back. Throwing a washed up noodle armed backup risks a terrible season for this team. To me that isn't acceptable. If Mallett got us some real compensation in return than fine, but our success rate on 3rd round picks is pitiful, and it's not exactly an asset worth potentially bombing a season for.

Mallett hasn't set the world on fire, but he's also flashed. This past preseason the O-Line was awful. I don't really take anything away from him because of that. He looked great playing with Price and Ridley last year, and I think he's a player that can do big things when he has a clean pocket and the ability to throw to physically talented players. He has both of those things when he plays with the 1's.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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To some extent I agree, but I'd also argue that Mallett hasn't really inspired confidence thus far in either the preseason or the regular season, and that he probably won't ever play for New England barring something unforeseen. Before Brady signed his new deal, his contract was set to expire at the same time as Mallett's. In order to keep Mallett around, the Patriots would have had to jettison Brady and commit to paying Mallett a starter's salary without seeing if he could even perform like one. At this point, his primary value lies in his potential trade value; the Patriots should be trying to surround Tom Brady with the talent to win, not trying to hedge their bets with someone like Mallett.
I'm not sure why they'd need to pay a starter's salary to keep him. That's a huge assumption based on . . . what? If he doesn't get much playing time he's still an unknown commodity. As a Patriots backup he's likely to be stigmatized rather than have big money thrown at him. If he's shown something that warrants starter $ then he's obviously worth it and NE can pay it.

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The Patriots won seven fewer games with basically the same roster though, even with Cassel playing surprisingly well.
Still unfair. Unless you believe with Brady it would have been another near-record season? Regardless, the 11 win season was better than quite a few playoff teams and using the missed playoffs as a reason to dismiss the need for a decent QB2 is shortsighted, imo.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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I think the "if the Patriots were bad for a year, they may lose their winning attitude" argument is probably the best case for a backup, but nonetheless I think that the most likely way to win another Super Bowl is to improve the overall production of New England's snaps throughout the season by removing players who weren't producing and adding players who will.

The Patriots had a lot of average players (or worse) on the field too much last season. Kyle Arrington played 947 snaps, Steve Gregory was there for 901, Patrick Chung for 542, Deion Branch for 534 snaps, Jermaine Cunningham played 487, Brandon Deaderick was on the field for 468, Justin Francis for 302.

My hope is that by getting those guys off the field and replacing them with better players, New England will be a championship team. Having an emergency plan in place in case Brady gets hurt is something that we'd all like, but it requires investing in a hypothetical situation rather than a current on-field problem. By holding onto Mallett, we'd have been unable to fix our problems at cornerback, which is a more pressing need.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Here's the roster turnover in terms of snaps:

QB: 24 (Ryan Mallett 24)

RB: 465 (Danny Woodhead 456, Lex Hilliard 9)

WR: 1,761 (Brandon Lloyd 1,198, Deion Branch 534, Donte' Stallworth 20, Greg Salas 6, Kamar Aiken 3)

TE: 762 (Michael Hoomanawanui 363, Daniel Fells 338, Visanthe Shiancoe 57, Kellen Winslow 4)

OL: 1,305 (Dan Connolly 1,051, Nick McDonald 248, Mitch Petrus 6)

DL: 1,363 (Jermaine Cunningham 487, Brandon Deaderick 468, Trevor Scott 289, Ron Brace 92, Terrell McClain 11)

LB: 112 (Tracy White 72, Mike Rivera 19, Niko Koutouvides 9, Jeff Tarpinian 6, Bobby Carpenter 6)

DB: 3,321 (Kyle Arrington 947, Steve Gregory 901, Patrick Chung 542, Aqib Talib 394, Sterling Moore 236, Marquice Cole 232, Derrick Martin 69)
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I think the "if the Patriots were bad for a year, they may lose their winning attitude" argument is probably the best case for a backup, but nonetheless I think that the most likely way to win another Super Bowl is to improve the overall production of New England's snaps throughout the season by removing players who weren't producing and adding players who will.

The Patriots had a lot of average players (or worse) on the field too much last season. Kyle Arrington played 947 snaps, Steve Gregory was there for 901, Patrick Chung for 542, Deion Branch for 534 snaps, Jermaine Cunningham played 487, Brandon Deaderick was on the field for 468, Justin Francis for 302.

My hope is that by getting those guys off the field and replacing them with better players, New England will be a championship team. Having an emergency plan in place in case Brady gets hurt is something that we'd all like, but it requires investing in a hypothetical situation rather than a current on-field problem. By holding onto Mallett, we'd have been unable to fix our problems at cornerback, which is a more pressing need.
I think this would be a fair point if the Patriots actually got something in return that would help them this year. Davis as a 3rd round rookie is unlikely to be much better than average (or worse), and almost certainly wouldn't play better than Talib would have. If you flipped Mallett for a proven NFL corner or safety than I'd be more apt to agree with you.

However, there is more to football than winning the Super Bowl despite what we may think. Is an entire organization willing to play an entire season of awful football for a possible marginal improvement to one position grouping?

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Old 03-08-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Technically we got Tyrann Mathieu with the third-round pick received in that trade, who is an NFL-ready prospect. With Kyle Arrington gone, a lot of snaps need to be replaced in the slot. That's an addition that can help us now. We needed outside help as well after losing Talib, and he signed a five-year, $50 million deal which is completely ridiculous based on what we know of his durability and production, not to mention any off-the-field concerns. He wasn't going to be back regardless. Ryan Mallett isn't close to being NFL-ready based on what we've seen of him, and in two years he'll probably be playing somewhere else, if not sooner. If New England thought they were looking at a franchise quarterback, I don't know if they would have committed to Brady for another three years, and they almost certainly would have attempted to display Mallett for trade partners during the season. I'd rather have four years of Mathieu and Lester than two of Mallett riding the pine behind Brady barring some kind of freak injury.
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Technically we got Tyrann Mathieu with the third-round pick received in that trade, who is an NFL-ready prospect. With Kyle Arrington gone, a lot of snaps need to be replaced in the slot. That's an addition that can help us now. We needed outside help as well after losing Talib, and he signed a five-year, $50 million deal which is completely ridiculous based on what we know of his durability and production, not to mention any off-the-field concerns. He wasn't going to be back regardless. Ryan Mallett isn't close to being NFL-ready based on what we've seen of him, and in two years he'll probably be playing somewhere else, if not sooner. If New England thought they were looking at a franchise quarterback, I don't know if they would have committed to Brady for another three years, and they almost certainly would have attempted to display Mallett for trade partners during the season. I'd rather have four years of Mathieu and Lester than two of Mallett riding the pine behind Brady barring some kind of freak injury.
Brady is going to be 36 years old. It's not necessarily going to be a freak injury that keeps him out from this point forward. The Pats have been extremely fortunate that Brady hasn't been hurt besides 2008. What if Brady breaks something and misses 6 games? Do we throw away a season if Brady potentially can be healthy for the playoffs? It comes back to the point that for a Mathieu and Lester that isn't a risk worth taking. Kyle Arrington isn't an awful NB, I'd rather have him than Mathieu and no Mallett.

Again I just don't see how having no backup plan for an event that has a 15-20% likelihood of happening is worth potentially a good slot CB 2-3 years from now.
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