4-3 vs. 3-4 - Page 6

Ravens1991 · 11-24-2006, 06:13 PM

It said he was man to man against him.

draftguru151 · 11-24-2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravens1991

It said he was man to man against him.

Still all he did was jam him. It isn't hard to do man to man against a guy when you throw him to the sideline. If it was man to man and CJ got off the line Thomas would have been burnt. I would take JT one on one with CJ over Thomas.

bigbluedefense · 11-25-2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56

It depends on your division as i think you build to battle inthe division first.

so if you were in a pass happy division. I would def run the 3-4. It creates mismatches and add pass rushers with usually more speed.

but in a run happy division i would run 4-3. As it adds more lineman to help clog the lanes and keeps the blockers off your LBs

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I also want to discuss this notion that the 3-4 is quicker than the 4-3. This is actually false.

We assume that because you have an extra linebacker, that your team defense is faster, but the truth is 3-4 defenses are slower than 4-3 defenses, and actually thicker when you add up the total body mass of the front 7.

The prototypical 3-4 has these respective weights.

DE - 290
NT - 340
OLB - 260
ILB - 250

Thats 1940 lbs of mass in the front 7.

The prototypical 4-3 bodyweights are

DE - 270
NT - 310
UT - 300
MLB - 240
SLB - 240
WILL - 235

Thats 1865 lbs of mass.

The 4-3 has smaller quicker linebackers who play the middle of the field faster than the 3-4.

Remember, while the 3-4 may have one extra LB, youre usually blitzing that LB, leaving 3 LBs in coverage who tend to be thicker than 4-3 Lbs, so you have less speed in coverage. Plus, your 3 downlinemen are essentially all DTs, so you get less overall speed out of the pass rush as well.

This is why the 3-4 is better against the run, but worst against the pass. You have a thicker front 7 against the run, and its spaced out so its difficult to bounce it outside as well. However, the overall weight of the front 7 reduces team speed, making coverage a little slower, and pass rush a little slower, thus equating to worse pass defense.

Don't believe me? Think about who has the best run defenses in the league. Dallas, Pittsburgh, and SD. All 3-4 teams. Who has the best pass defenses? Generally Cover 2 teams, built on speed and 4-3 fronts, like the Bears.

The 3-4 is actually better suited against run oriented teams, and the 4-3 against passing teams. 4-3 teams tend to generate a better pass rush compared to the 3-4, and have more athletic LBs who can defend the middle of the field.

stephenson86 · 11-25-2006, 11:17 AM

id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 11-25-2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenson86

id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

But that's next to impossible. Your secondary would need to be like D-Hall, Champ, Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. It'd be a good defense if you had them, but the only way that would happen is if there was life on Mars and tey played football and challenged us to a football war.

Boston · 11-25-2006, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenson86

id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

But that's next to impossible. Your secondary would need to be like D-Hall, Champ, Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. It'd be a good defense if you had them, but the only way that would happen is if there was life on Mars and tey played football and challenged us to a football war.

I think other countries would be far less out there.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 11-25-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenson86

id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

But that's next to impossible. Your secondary would need to be like D-Hall, Champ, Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. It'd be a good defense if you had them, but the only way that would happen is if there was life on Mars and tey played football and challenged us to a football war.

I think other countries would be far less out there.

The only other country that plays football that I know of is Canada, and there are two things you need to know. It's a different game. And our best player is Jesse Palmer or Jesse Lumsden, neither of whom made NFL rosters.

draftguru151 · 11-25-2006, 12:13 PM

And we all know Mars has a bunch of all stars.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 11-25-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by draftguru151

And we all know Mars has a bunch of all stars.

Well now that I think of it, Canada would own all of you guys. KYLE QUINLAN ROCKS!!!

draftguru151 · 11-25-2006, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski

Quote:

Originally Posted by draftguru151

And we all know Mars has a bunch of all stars.

Well now that I think of it, Canada would own all of you guys. KYLE QUINLAN ROCKS!!!

bigbluedefense · 11-25-2006, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiver

Quote:

Cover 2 can work, I won't deny that. But its just not my cup of tea. Theres too many inherit flaws in the philosophy. I grew up playing smashmouth football, and the Cover 2's philosophies go against most of the principles I grew up playing and believing in.

BBD, the correct terminology you're looking for is "Tampa 2." Jacksonville runs almost exclusively cover 2 and cover 3, but they have two beast interior tackles. Whereas in the Tony Dungy system, what you are referring to, almost everyone is undersized.

I know, most refer to it as Cover 2 though, thats why I say it. Tampa 2 is an extreme variation of Cover 2.

The Cover 2 is starting to develop several different variations throughout the league. Minny and Detroit are not true Cover 2 teams, they are Cover 2 in principle with their own little twist to it. Jacksonville runs alot of Cover 2 as well.

Chicago is still for the most part though, a pure Cover 2 team. The only difference is that they have a thicker MIKE and SAM. Thats about the only difference though.

Minny and Jacksonville use alot of Cover 2 principles, but the DEs still have gap assignments against the run, their Dtackles are traditional in makeup, and they have DBs who can play man coverage. So I wouldn't classify them as true Cover 2 teams.

Ravens1991 · 11-25-2006, 02:20 PM

Who do you all think the best DT is? I have seen John Henderson and I think he is a beast, Kris Jenkins is very good also, I havent had a chance to see Shaun Rogers.

bigbluedefense · 11-25-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravens1991

Who do you all think the best DT is? I have seen John Henderson and I think he is a beast, Kris Jenkins is very good also, I havent had a chance to see Shaun Rogers.

Impossible to say, different Dtackles thrive in different schemes.

3-4 - Jamal Williams
Conventional 4-3 - Shaun Rogers
Cover 2 - Tommie Harris

diabsoule · 11-25-2006, 03:34 PM

I'm a 4-3 man, myself. I'd like to use a hybrid in a perfect world, but a choice between the two is a 4-3. I'd take that with a top-notch secondary.

The Unseen · 11-25-2006, 03:49 PM

A more complete answer from me...

I'd love to use what the Ravens run: random, versatile, attacking, and confusing. However, they have some great and seldom talent that makes it what it is, "in a perfect world" as diabsoule said. In a less perfect world, I'd choose a 4-3, with more of a blitzing, man-to-man style; somewhere between a normal 4-3 and a blitz-happy one like the 2005 Broncos concerning blitz rate.

Denver Bronco99 · 11-25-2006, 08:18 PM

i would def run a hybrid type Dline

but it would be a 4-3

DE-Peppers
DT-Jamal Williams
DT-Vince wilfork
DE-Tommie Harris

all GOOD players my DT would eat any oline, and harris could easily play DE..but he would have size to help in the run game

draftguru151 · 11-25-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56

i would def run a hybrid type Dline

but it would be a 4-3

DE-Peppers
DT-Jamal Williams
DT-Vince wilfork
DE-Tommie Harris

all GOOD players my DT would eat any oline, and harris could easily play DE..but he would have size to help in the run game

How is that a hybrid defense?

Ravens1991 · 11-25-2006, 08:36 PM

good question, I think he means having Harris at DE is a hybrid , Wilfork or Williams are suited for a 3-4 NT, plus I am not sure if Tommie Harris would do well as a 3-4 DE.

bigbluedefense · 11-25-2006, 08:40 PM

My hybrid

DE - Luis Castillo
NT - Jamal Williams
UT - Richard Seymour
DE - Osi Umenyiora

SAM - Marcus Washington
MIKE - Antonio Pierce
WILL - Adalius Thomas

the 3-4 look of it would be

DE - Richard Seymour
NT - Jamal Williams
DE - Luis Castillo

SAM - Adalius Thomas
ILB - Antonio Pierce
ILB - Marcus Washington
WILL - Osi Umenyiora

Ravens1991 · 11-25-2006, 09:02 PM

Are these correct 4-6 principles

A good well rounded d-line
OLB that are good at blitzing
good cover CB
a good deep zone S

draftguru151 · 11-25-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

My hybridDE - Luis Castillo

I don't see him playing DE in a 4-3, and I would take Seymour at DE over him.

11-25-2006, 10:04 PM

well i mean liek the 34 is cool cuz theres like less people on teh line and stuff, but man, i gotta give it up for the 43 cuz that's like how old my mom is and stuff...

The Unseen · 11-25-2006, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravens1991

Are these correct 4-6 principles

A great well rounded d-line
OLBs that are great at blitzing
fantastic cover CBs
a fantastic deep zone S

Fixed as shown? Yeah.

Ravens1991 · 11-25-2006, 10:26 PM

ok thank you, now I see why last year the Ravens institued a 46, Rolle and C-mac were good along w/ Reed, plus we had Adalius Thomas.

America · 11-25-2006, 10:39 PM

My Hybrid

43

DE - Julius Peppers
DT - John Henderson
DT - Jamal Williams
DE - Mario Williams

OLB - Adalius Thomas
MLB - Brian Urlacher
OLB - Marcus Washington/Karlos Dansby

34

DE - Henderson
NT - Williams
DE - M. Williams

WOLB - Julius Peppers
ILB - Washington
MLB - Urlacher
SOLB - Thomas

Only reason Mario is in there is because of the potential to dominate both 34 and 43 defenses at DE.