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View Poll Results: Who is the Best?
Terrell Suggs 41 28.28%
Demarcus Ware 34 23.45%
Shawne Merriman 70 48.28%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-30-2007, 08:29 AM    (permalink
Acreboy
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Wow, I guess I just prefer Ware better.

1.) Ware
2.) Suggs
3.) Merriman
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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If you agree with this, which many do including me, IMO Ware is a better rusher & playmaker making him better than Suggs
Hmmmm. Well, Ware is a better playmaker than Suggs. I agree with that. But I don't think he's a better pass rusher. His arsenal of moves is so basic. Its either a generic bullrush, or a generic edge rush. Thats it. Suggs displays a much better arsenal of moves. You gotta remember, Baltimore has so many playmakers on the team, its hard for Suggs to stand out. Ware and Merriman were THE guys of their respective teams. You can make a case both ways I guess since that also means that Merriman and Ware get more attention thrown their way.

Its tough, theyre so close. Ware has potential to be the best of the 3. He's so athletically gifted its scary. Maybe Im hard on him because I have high expectations for him, and currently he hasn't lived up to them. I would like to see a better motor out of him too. Merriman and Suggs have better motors.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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Hmmmm. Well, Ware is a better playmaker than Suggs. I agree with that. But I don't think he's a better pass rusher. His arsenal of moves is so basic. Its either a generic bullrush, or a generic edge rush. Thats it. Suggs displays a much better arsenal of moves. You gotta remember, Baltimore has so many playmakers on the team, its hard for Suggs to stand out. Ware and Merriman were THE guys of their respective teams. You can make a case both ways I guess since that also means that Merriman and Ware get more attention thrown their way.

Its tough, theyre so close. Ware has potential to be the best of the 3. He's so athletically gifted its scary. Maybe Im hard on him because I have high expectations for him, and currently he hasn't lived up to them. I would like to see a better motor out of him too. Merriman and Suggs have better motors.
Look for Ware to have a monster year with the addition of Spencer.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:40 AM    (permalink
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Actually, I failed to mention this earlier, T Sizzle is probably the best of the 3 at generating fumbles. He strips the ball better than the other 2.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:40 AM    (permalink
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Hmmmm. Well, Ware is a better playmaker than Suggs. I agree with that. But I don't think he's a better pass rusher. His arsenal of moves is so basic. Its either a generic bullrush, or a generic edge rush. Thats it. Suggs displays a much better arsenal of moves. You gotta remember, Baltimore has so many playmakers on the team, its hard for Suggs to stand out. Ware and Merriman were THE guys of their respective teams. You can make a case both ways I guess since that also means that Merriman and Ware get more attention thrown their way.

Its tough, theyre so close. Ware has potential to be the best of the 3. He's so athletically gifted its scary. Maybe Im hard on him because I have high expectations for him, and currently he hasn't lived up to them. I would like to see a better motor out of him too. Merriman and Suggs have better motors.
I agree with everything you said. But if Ware got 11/12 sacks last year, whether his moves are basic or not, they seem to be working. If he can be better coached he can pile up even more. Suggs is also a vet while Ware is going into year 3. It's so close but like I said I'd take Merriman of all three.

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Look for Ware to have a monster year with the addition of Spencer.
This can get more pressure off of him and with the new Dallas Coach (blanking out name) he is great with the 34.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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Look for Ware to have a monster year with the addition of Spencer.
I expect him to have a better year. But its unrealistic for some Cowboy fans to expect 17 to 20 sacks. Ive heard that # being thrown around alot. Like its that easy to get 20 sacks. I mean come on...I consider a great year to be 15 sacks. Its not easy for rushbackers to get high sack totals. Merriman is the exception, not the rule.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:44 AM    (permalink
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This can get more pressure off of him and with the new Dallas Coach (blanking out name) he is great with the 34.
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I expect him to have a better year. But its unrealistic for some Cowboy fans to expect 17 to 20 sacks. Ive heard that # being thrown around alot. Like its that easy to get 20 sacks. I mean come on...I consider a great year to be 15 sacks. Its not easy for rushbackers to get high sack totals. Merriman is the exception, not the rule.
Wow, people throwing out 17-20 sacks? Geez..
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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Wow, people throwing out 17-20 sacks? Geez..
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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I expect him to have a better year. But its unrealistic for some Cowboy fans to expect 17 to 20 sacks. Ive heard that # being thrown around alot. Like its that easy to get 20 sacks. I mean come on...I consider a great year to be 15 sacks. Its not easy for rushbackers to get high sack totals. Merriman is the exception, not the rule.
That's a bit hefty...
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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Wow, people throwing out 17-20 sacks? Geez..
Well in defense of Cowboy fans, it couldve been just one guy in particular who kept saying it, I don't remember :p
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:40 AM    (permalink
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Hmmmm. Well, Ware is a better playmaker than Suggs. I agree with that. But I don't think he's a better pass rusher. His arsenal of moves is so basic. Its either a generic bullrush, or a generic edge rush. Thats it. Suggs displays a much better arsenal of moves. You gotta remember, Baltimore has so many playmakers on the team, its hard for Suggs to stand out. Ware and Merriman were THE guys of their respective teams. You can make a case both ways I guess since that also means that Merriman and Ware get more attention thrown their way.

Its tough, theyre so close. Ware has potential to be the best of the 3. He's so athletically gifted its scary. Maybe Im hard on him because I have high expectations for him, and currently he hasn't lived up to them. I would like to see a better motor out of him too. Merriman and Suggs have better motors.

i must say BBD, all your posts are very inteligent and you know wat you are talking about... props

anyway, having only watched suggs and merriman (in college) on a consistent basis i dont know wat type of player ware is... but when i see suggs, i dont see a rush backer, i see a complete linebacker... he might not stick out but he is always making that big tackle, not a sack
if i wanted a complete LB, it would be him, but merrimen's reckless and crazy rushing style gets the nod if i wanted a rush backer
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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i must say BBD, all your posts are very inteligent and you know wat you are talking about... props

anyway, having only watched suggs and merriman (in college) on a consistent basis i dont know wat type of player ware is... but when i see suggs, i dont see a rush backer, i see a complete linebacker... he might not stick out but he is always making that big tackle, not a sack
if i wanted a complete LB, it would be him, but merrimen's reckless and crazy rushing style gets the nod if i wanted a rush backer
Suggs has become an overall linebacker/hybrid player because when he entered the league he was a pure pass rusher and that's it. Merriman is still raw and unrefined, he is all pass rush and is a liability in the run defense and as for Ware, I'm sorry I don't buy this hype I hear about him. Ware may come out with a big year this year and may very well live up to this hype but so far I'm not seeing the production to correspond with the potential. Sizzle is by far the best in this group and will continue to prove it for many years to come, and by the way his contract extension is going to be enormous so San Diego and Dallas will have their hands full when their guys are up for renewals.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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Gimme Suggs easily

Hes fast..stronger than his size might indicate and hes TSIZZLE
I really think that Merriman is better but I would never give up T-Sizzle he is a beast and is way underrated. He doesnt get half of the credit he deserves and the Ravens made that position what it is today...Merriman and Ware would have been DE's or made to lose weight to play OLB, but the Ravens just took him the way he was and utilized his talents to the best of HIS ability.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Some of you gotta remember, Ware played in BY FAR the most laid back, simplistic 3-4 of any of the 3. He was used as a pass rusher FAR less than Suggs or Merriman, and was sent back into coverage a ton more (where I think he's easily the best of the 3)...Ware may be the guy on Dallas' defense, but he faces double/triples because NONE of the defensive linemen could generate any pressure or require extra attention, and Akin/James/Carpenter weren't getting any pressure opposite of him after Greg Ellis went down. Ware is about to be let loose in Wade's scheme, and I think he'll prove to be the best of the 3.

To me, he's the best run-stuffer, he's the best in coverage, he's a very good pass-rusher...Ware was easily the most raw prospect of the 3 coming out of college, but he's the most athletically gifted and has shown the most progress of the three from when he entered the league to this point in his career than either Suggs or Merriman, in my opinion. Ware is only going to get better, and he is definately going to impose his will on the L in the new scheme.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Some of you gotta remember, Ware played in BY FAR the most laid back, simplistic 3-4 of any of the 3. He was used as a pass rusher FAR less than Suggs or Merriman, and was sent back into coverage a ton more (where I think he's easily the best of the 3)...Ware may be the guy on Dallas' defense, but he faces double/triples because NONE of the defensive linemen could generate any pressure or require extra attention, and Akin/James/Carpenter weren't getting any pressure opposite of him after Greg Ellis went down. Ware is about to be let loose in Wade's scheme, and I think he'll prove to be the best of the 3.

To me, he's the best run-stuffer, he's the best in coverage, he's a very good pass-rusher...Ware was easily the most raw prospect of the 3 coming out of college, but he's the most athletically gifted and has shown the most progress of the three from when he entered the league to this point in his career than either Suggs or Merriman, in my opinion. Ware is only going to get better, and he is definately going to impose his will on the L in the new scheme.

Honestly, I love Ware in coverage. I think thats his best attribute. He was not tripled though. Ive seen him doubled, but thats usually not the case either. Most of the time he had the LT on him, and thats about it. From what Ive seen, Merriman is easily the most doubled of the bunch. He's always doubled.

One of the issues I have is, everyone saying that Ware will be let loose under Phillips. Ive seen plenty of Cowboys games last year. I don't see how Wade is gonna use him any better than BP did. He'll get maybe 4 more rushes at the qb per game. Is that really THAT big of a deal? I mean come on, its not like he was in coverage all the time. He played DE in the nickel, and he rushed at least 50% of the time in the base 3-4. He had plenty of oppurtunities.

This leads me to bring up another point I forgot to mention. The lost stat of hurries. While Ware had more sacks than Suggs this year, he didn't hurry the qb as much as you would like. Hurries imo are just as important as sacks. But its lost in today's world of stats.

Let me ask the board this. Who had a better game? A DE who constantly disrupted plays, getting tons of hurries all game but no sacks, or a DE who was being worked all game, getting no hurries, but on 2 plays, got 2 sacks?

To me, its the guy who had the hurries. He was disrupting plays on a consistant basis. Ware from what Ive seen, does not do a great job generating hurries. And that has alot to do with his motor, and his basic pass rushing techniques. He should be the best of the 3, but Im not ready to crown him just yet. He's gotta develop more as a player.
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Old 05-30-2007, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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DeMarcus Ware has the athleticism I like to be able to make plays all over the field. He breaks quickly to the ballcarrier and has the agility to contain bootlegs and other toss plays. 3 years from now he should be the best all around player of the 3 and possibly the most dominant.
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Old 05-30-2007, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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To those who think that Suggs is better or as good in coverage as Ware, let me point something out here. Of all Ware's best plays this year, each of the top 3 were either in coverage, or using skills that are applied in coverage.

1) INT for TD against the Falcons.

On this play, he was running full force towards Vick, who was backpedaling in the pocket, and then absolutely rifled the ball over DeMarcus' head in an attempt to throw it away. Ware jumps up in mid stride and catches the ball (which had left Vick's hands about 2 yards previous), lands in stride and races towards the endzone for a TD. This was one of the top 3 defensive plays of the year. I have never seen that type of ball skill out of any pass rusher for as long as I've watched football.

2) FR/INT for TD vs Philly

This play was nearly as amazing. He was coming off the edge vs. the Eagles against a double team of Tra Thomas and LJ Smith. On the other side, Greg Ellis hits McNabb as he is throwing, and the ball pops waaay up in the air, but backwards. DeMarcus not only has the wherewithal and awareness to see the play, but then perfectly comes off the blocks, tracks the ball in space, and catches it in stride while running downfield for a TD. Again, just not something you see most pass rushers doing.

3) Smackdown vs. Indy

This was the best play to show exactly how skilled and schooled Ware is in coverage. It's 4th down in the waning minute against the undefeated Colts. Manning is in the shotgun, with Ware playing coverage on the left side. Indianapolis runs a play specifically aimed at breaking down DeMarcus in space, with Clark lining up tight on the weak-side and running a seam pattern meant to drive DeMarcus off the ball, with Reggie Wayne running a short in/drag meant to catch DeMarcus vacating his area. Ware meets and tracks Clark off the ball, giving a good bump and disrupting his pattern just enough, before a) diagnosing his zone responsibility of passing him on and b) recognizing the play and the fact that Reggie Wayne is coming underneath him. Ware passes Clark off, then quickly jumps on Wayne's route and pushes him to the ground(a legak move since Wayne is inside of 5 yards and the ball is not in the air), negating not just one, but both of Mannings primary reads. On the replay, Manning waits patiently for his option to present itself, but is forced into throwing the ball in the general vicinity of Clark and complains about Reggie getting thrown down. Coverage doesn't get any better than this play.



So, to me, that clearly sets the bar for what a 34 OLB can do in pass coverage. I don't watch the Ravens regularly enough to make a thorough comparison of Suggs and DeMarcus, but I do watch the Chargers regularly, and Merriman isn't even in the same ballpark with this area of his game.

Meanwhile, some things have come to light about the Cowboy's scheme that I was not previously aware of. Out of our base package (which we ran about 60% percent of the time), most of the play calls were dependent upon the alignment of the opposing offense. If the TE lined up on the strong side, then the ROLB was sent to rush, while if he lined up on the weak-side (like in the Indy example above), then the LOLB was sent, and DeMarcus was forced into coverage.

After the Greg Ellis injury last season, teams started employing this tactic on an ever increasing basis in order to keep DeMarcus in coverage, and negating our only real pash rushing threat. Obviously, the logical thing to do is to move Ware around, and keep the offense guessing as to where he will line up.....but BP was a stickler about things like this, and rarely ever allowed that to happen. As a result, DeMarcus only had one sack out of the base package in the last 6 games of the season.

Think about that for a second. In that stretch, he had 5 1/2 sacks, but 4 1/2 of them came out of the nickel package. That is not a coincedence. He was forced into coverage an inordinate amount of the time after Ellis went down with his achilles injury, and that was reflected in both his individual sack numbers, and the team as a whole. Don't ask me why BP was so stubborn about moving him around, because I couldn't understand it then, and I don't now.

All that said, there is no doubt that Ware has the smallest and least effect pass rushing repertoire of these three players. It showed some signs of improvement late in the year, but he still relies on his speed and bullrush moves much too often....but theres a reason for that. I think of all the OLB pass rushers, DeMarcus has the most speed and best body-lean (allowing him to "blow by" defenders as if they were standing still) of the crop. He is also quite a bit stronger than you would think, and he out-benched Merriman at the combine.

The big question is whether he will work on his technique and develop his countermoves to the point where he is literally unblockable. If he does that, there is no question in my mind that he will be the best rush 'backer in the league, and a top 5 defensive player overall, along with being a perennial DPOY candidate.

But, as you can see, I am just a wee bit partial.....:D

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Old 05-30-2007, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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In regaurds to Merriman; the whole "now that he is off juice argument" is pretty flawed. HGH is the wave of the future and is untraceable. Merriman is a known HGH user as are many other Chargers. You just have to know the right people and this info is pretty standard.

This also raises the question, How can we rule out Ware or Suggs from HGH use.

We will never be able to completely filter the game is the players association keeps blocking the new HGH tests.

That being said, I think I would put Merriman 3rd. I think in his new defense this year, accompanied with the loss of Godfrey and Edwards in the middle, he will be less productive. I dont think the Defense will utilize his strengths as well as Wades did.

I would also put it as a toss up between Ware and Suggs at number 1, because Ware still has so much potential and is still very young. They are both great in coverage and against the run, but Suggs definately rushes the passer better as of right now.

I dont think the scheme has been the problem for Ware either, I think he just needs to dedicate some time to working on new technique. I only expect a 3-5 sack increase for Ware in the new scheme, given he didnt dedicate alot of time to his pass rushing this offseason.
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Old 05-30-2007, 01:47 PM    (permalink
JK17
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Originally Posted by Burns336 View Post
In regaurds to Merriman; the whole "now that he is off juice argument" is pretty flawed. HGH is the wave of the future and is untraceable. Merriman is a known HGH user as are many other Chargers. You just have to know the right people and this info is pretty standard.
Thats a ridiculous statement, what proof do you have that Merriman is an HGH user, and other Chargers are? You just said it was untraceable, so that is all speculation, not to mention you brought in other players, who you didn't even bother to name? If these guys are known users who are they, because I haven't heard anything about that....

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This also raises the question, How can we rule out Ware or Suggs from HGH use.

We will never be able to completely filter the game is the players association keeps blocking the new HGH tests.
If we don't test for HGH, then we don't know who is on it...so don't accuse Merriman or "Chargers Players" of using something there is no evidence to suggest they do. And if your going to blanket the entire Chargers team like that with no hard evidence you can do it for any player or team in the league, so don't make statements like these.

The rest of your post is your analysis of the players, so I won't get into that I don't have a problem with it.
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Old 05-30-2007, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Suggs has become an overall linebacker/hybrid player because when he entered the league he was a pure pass rusher and that's it. Merriman is still raw and unrefined, he is all pass rush and is a liability in the run defense and as for Ware, I'm sorry I don't buy this hype I hear about him. Ware may come out with a big year this year and may very well live up to this hype but so far I'm not seeing the production to correspond with the potential. Sizzle is by far the best in this group and will continue to prove it for many years to come, and by the way his contract extension is going to be enormous so San Diego and Dallas will have their hands full when their guys are up for renewals.
Where did you get the impression that Merriman was a liability against the run? It's Donnie Edwards who was the guy who you couldn't depend on in that situation.
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Old 05-30-2007, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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The thing that should concern Cowboys fans is if Ware will ever improve his arsenal of pass rush moves.

Its simple, Ware will be the best of the 3 if he simply does this. But its easier said than done. If you read his detailed scout reports coming out of college, he's been doing this his whole career. Not just in the NFL. You wonder if he'll ever improve upon this aspect of his game. Whats so underrated about the pass rushing position, whether its rushbacker or DE is how mental the position is.

Its a game of chess. You gotta set up your Tackle. You can't just beat them with athleticism. This is the NFL, that will die on you quickly. You have to set them up. Pick your spots and make your moves appropriately.

Its said that it takes a full 3 years to transition from DE to rushbacker. This is true. But what they mean when they say this is, it takes 3 years to fully understand the nuances of the LB position, ie coverage, stopping the run standing up, reading offenses etc. Not rushing the passer. Thats farely standard, and that part of your game should be seen instantly from day 1. Ware has grasped the nuances of the LB position much quicker than expected, where his game is average is the pass rushing aspect, which shouldve been improved upon already.

Im not saying that he won't ever develop moves, I still feel that when the dust settles, he has potential to be the best of the bunch, but if he doesn't develop those moves by this year, he may never be the elite pass rusher that everyone envisioned. Training camp is gonna be critical to his improvement as a player. He's amazing in everything, if he can improve as a pass rusher, he's a top 5 defensive player in the league. But again, its no guarantee that it happens. We just have to wait and see.

You would like to see more fire out of the kid too. He just doesn't seem to have the same intensity and motor as the other 2. That you can't teach, thats something youre born with. But even then, he's so freakishly athletic, he can make up for this with improved technique.
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Old 05-30-2007, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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You know what I noticed? I know this is random, but lately, I seem to mostly post in defense related threads. =/
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Old 05-30-2007, 02:13 PM    (permalink
SenorGato
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How much do you guys think Suggs will fetch on the open market next year?

If he doesn't remain a Raven, where do you think he's most likely to go?

I think he's a match made in heaven with the Jets. But the same can be said about the 49ers and almost any other team in the NFL really.
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Old 05-30-2007, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Suggs does it without Juicing...I'll take him.
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Old 05-30-2007, 02:24 PM    (permalink
Burns336
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Thats a ridiculous statement, what proof do you have that Merriman is an HGH user, and other Chargers are? You just said it was untraceable, so that is all speculation, not to mention you brought in other players, who you didn't even bother to name? If these guys are known users who are they, because I haven't heard anything about that....



If we don't test for HGH, then we don't know who is on it...so don't accuse Merriman or "Chargers Players" of using something there is no evidence to suggest they do. And if your going to blanket the entire Chargers team like that with no hard evidence you can do it for any player or team in the league, so don't make statements like these.

The rest of your post is your analysis of the players, so I won't get into that I don't have a problem with it.
Even though im not a Charger Fan, I'm associated with people who are in the Charger ring on different levels. Most the guys that come around are 2nd and 3rd stringers, with an occasional appearance from Marcus McNeil. These guys talk, most of the talk came from the TE you guys released in the off season. Ryan Krous I believe? Anyway, he wouldn't stop running his mouth about how he imported HGH for guys like Merriman from the mid west, which is where he had a source.

You dont have to believe it, but I was around when these things were discussed at the house before we would leave for the bars. It's true man, im sorry.

It's not like you should be the only one who feels bad either, because how do I know some guy on Dallas doesn't hook Ware up? Merriman is just someone that I know for sure.

Last edited by Burns336 : 05-30-2007 at 02:31 PM.
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